ROTJ CRL Updates

[dark_jedi_ire]

My two cent..

As Im new here and havnt made much of an impact on the forum,, for me anyway there is always a balance
between screen accuracy and what is troopable/livable in.. Im just finishing my Hero TK and Im going as screen
accurate as possible with some changes so that I can troop in for Example.

I had been discussing this with Jester yesterday in relation to this as I am starting my Royal and My Wife has just
got delivery of her FP full Robes, having researched and been studying the book, two things jumped out at me and they where the Fold in the Fabric at the front and the Gloves. As I was looking for other Bucket sources and the idea of having mine tailor made vs FP, as mentioned I am just about to get my Full kit,.

To me the gloves stand out as being leather/suede and should match the inner robes, (compared the ones the the mentioned Costume book)

In Regards to the robes, its a difficult one, especially For those that already have their robes, (prime example Me and my Wife) I have now seen my wife`s FP robes up close and straight off the bat went hmmm, Fold in fabric.. that`s not going to be possible or We Are going to try with the aid of a tailor to See if some kind of fold in fabric can be done.. as I think its is a something that has always stood out to me even when I was younger, as I loved the way the fabric looked and flowed..

My only guide for clearance is the CRL, which to me, I think needs updating, but then there`s back to the issue of current flat Robes vs newer updated robes, my Wife is already looking at me with daggers When I mentioned these ideas to her a few weeks ago haha...

Keep it up guys, your a fountain of Knowledge and skill and your builds and this forum has been invaluable to me and my Wife,

[JesterTDA]

The idea of what happens to current members if the CRL changes isn't a big deal. It's happening right now with FX helmets for TKs. At a day in the near future (could be any day now) new costumes submitted with FX buckets will no longer be accepted but this doesn't hurt previous acceptances. That's why there is grandfathering of already approved costumes. If everybody agreed (not sure how it's really done, poll perhaps?) that ROTJ robes need to not be flat at the very least then there would be some future date and everybody would be notified. For example, "Starting November 1st, 2015, all ROTJ costumes can not have a flat appearance. If you're currently working on a ROTJ costume please work with your GML to be grandfathered in, after November 1st no flat robes would be allowed." Starting Nov 1st when someone joins the boards and says, "I was thinking about buying some FP robes what do you think?" We'd be able to respond with, "They were accepted but now they're only allowed for previously approved costumes."

[Sascha_Wilsing]

We could put this in as a level 2 maybe, so it wont be too hard to get a proper robe and we dont have to grandfather existing costumes.

[LuciousTalvloinne]

Those levels always made it confusing to some individuals. Its like us letting folks use jack boots when they cant find red boots. Could make the option to where they have to have red boots now.

[bdgr]

I like the idea of the heavy "draped" look for the outer robe as a second/third level requirement. As was shown in the different images, including the Royal Guard package image, the drape varied greatly (some more flat and others really pronounced).

[Cabbagefarmer]

The Royal Guard ROTJ is "The Grandfather“ of all following Guards and seen first on OT Episode 6. For that reason alone, we have to discuss and put our knowledge together to figure out the new CRLs which fits and represent this costume as good as possible.

Besides that we have to do this for all kinds of costumes represented by our detachment. But the ROTJ Royal Guard “in my opinion” is our flagship.

To become more movie accurate, we have to consider all facts we already know and go through all screen shots or any other references we can get/find.
I went through the posts, step by step, to give my 2 cents. First regarding the “Star Wars Costumes The Original Trilogy” book. I assume that the facts that are shown, are concept arts and not really used on the movie.
The pic JesterTDA posted at the first post shows a costume draped over a shop-window mannequin. Those mannequins always suppose to be very thin. The robe that is shown is draped as good as possible to illustrate the outer robe. “Guessing” for that reason they fixed the outer robe with some kind of seamstress needles. JesterTDA's proposal, and I quote: “As you can see, it appears that the fabric from the left has been pulled loosely across the body, over the right shoulder, and pinned behind the right shoulder blade (though there is no picture of this). “ might be a very good interpretation. I think it is just draped to fit the shop- window mannequin. I also think they draped the original costumes to fit the different actors as they only did a few costume requisites for that character. A side note for clearance, it´s the same effect like we have for the Officer costumes. They only had a few costume requisites done and those had to fit several actors with different body measurements, so we have the seams on the officer´s jackets.

When I started my Royal Guard, I was inexperienced about the costume. I ordered a FP robe and from the first day I got it I was impatient with it. The flat robe looks like a sack and the fabrics are worth the money. I started to blue-pencil my outer and inner robe to find a respectable way to present the ROTJ Guard. It took me about two years and two new outer and inner robes to find good fabrics and sewing patterns to get satisfied. We created a nice falling backside and even worked out how to do the waves on the front side. That was simple, as JesterTDA already mentioned, maybe it was fixed behind the shoulder, we had to drape it and fix it and then you have your wave. The wave disappears after the first move you do. For me it´s comprehensible that they draped the Guards in the movies for the scenes. The guard characters did not have a use for moving scenes on Episode 6. As you can compare with the blue Senate Guards at Episode 1 “the phantom menace” they walk and have a flat front side robe without waves.

Next point: the gloves. Made of the same fabric of the inner robe OR after all “leather” fabrics. At the moment a point to go by conjectures. I would say they used "maybe“ leather gloves that matched the inner robe as good as possible. We have to think back in the 80's, what was available there? BUT for changing and to revise the CRLs I suggest to use the inner robe fabric for the gloves. The only way at the moment to match the colors as good as possible to present the costume.
For that reason to compare gloves I was able to do my own custom made gloves done from “goats velour leather” in a burgundy colour. That ´s an amazing material for gloves.

The final point to JesterTDA post about the colors. We will always have the mess with different lightning conditions and how it affects the Red of the robes and helemt. So every robe supposed to look different. To find a consistent red color around the world to recommend to our fellow guards is nearly impossible by now. I would recommendo to have an open discussion regarding red color/shade variants available.

Coming to the visors as it´s one topic on that discussion. To be movie accurate we have to use red visors and the face/eyes of the wearer has to be seen. Like we can confirm with movie shots and clearly seen on the deleted scenes.
It´s true you go crazy while trooping with red visors. I can change my visors as I use Velcro fastener to fix it inside the bucket. One option could be: to use for canon events red visors are required (except grandfathered costumes, a change is up to the decision of each member) and black ones are optional.

How to change and when to start a change to the current CRLs???

My “only”personal suggestions are:

The bucket has to match the color of the the outer robe as good as possible. The visor has to be red and you can see the eyes of the wearer.
Optional black visors.

No flat outer robes are approvable (timeline to start, we have to figure out separately) means to Robes like the current FP are NOT approvable anymore. They do robes since years without changing the patterns. They do not match the robes seen at the movie. A Royal Guard costume must not be a supposed “cheap” way to join the ranks of 501st Legion. (We ”the 510st” do have Gateway costumes like Crew Members or Tie Reserve Pilots)

The inner robe is a thawb style cloth like supposed at the current crls. A point we don´t have to care about to much as it´s never “really” seen and the best option so far.

The gloves have to match the color of the inner robe and suggested done by the same material. Leather gloves are optional and must match the color of the inner robe as good as possible. NO smooth leather acceptable.

For boots, no option to wear black boots as an alternative. Only option. Quote current CRLs: ”Crimson red suede boots, pointed toe, with a relatively conservative heel. There are no visible straps, buckles, or ornamental stitching. The boots cover the wearer's ankles.”

Delete all Level suggestions as they are only confusing some people. A point Stephen already mentioned on his post.

I also reject all level programs like done for TKs, Officers, Sith Lords….for the reason that´s not necessary for our kind of costume. We don´t have a special strap or a small seam to point out for that. Goal has to be to have a clear pointed out CRL to have the optimum build guideline of the costume.

When to start a change? After a well realized research. Next the current CS could post an essay about and a poll is one option to decide about.

I agree with that proposal by JesterTDA

I do think a lot of what goes into a costume (any costume really) is the reality of what we see vs what we think we see. Everybody thinks Vader is solid black until they really look and notice that he's also a grey/silver. Nobody notices the straps holding TK armor together in a movie until they look for it and see it. That's what I think of when it comes to the visor. Everybody thinks it's black until you look at it in a movie set lighting and see that it's in fact red, and fairly see-through. From a personal trooping perspective, I perfer the black. I've done 3 years with red and I hated it. I missed out on so many things ("Did you see that kid in the yellow shirt? He was a huge fan!" "No, I saw lots of people in pink shirts though.") and got headaches from seeing everything in red.

I agree that different robes sit on people differently. From what was said in the OT Costume book everything was sewn by a single person but clearly they weren't custom fitted to each wearer. I'll buy that. I'll also agree that there may be a few instances when the robes appear flatter but even the flat ones have fabric ridges which most of our FP robes don't.

Perhaps a change in the CRLs to strongly suggest the flow in the robes, with a minimum of flatness would be a good way to go about it. In an ideal world FP (the main supplier of stock robes) would be able to fix the problem simply by sewing it that way, but I don't think that'll work until we put that in as the suggestion. I do think there is stronger evidence on the leather gloves, which V-Cell pointed out.

and that´s a good point by JesterTDA:

The idea of what happens to current members if the CRL changes isn't a big deal. It's happening right now with FX helmets for TKs. At a day in the near future (could be any day now) new costumes submitted with FX buckets will no longer be accepted but this doesn't hurt previous acceptances. That's why there is grandfathering of already approved costumes. If everybody agreed (not sure how it's really done, poll perhaps?) that ROTJ robes need to not be flat at the very least then there would be some future date and everybody would be notified. For example, "Starting November 1st, 2015, all ROTJ costumes can not have a flat appearance. If you're currently working on a ROTJ costume please work with your GML to be grandfathered in, after November 1st no flat robes would be allowed." Starting Nov 1st when someone joins the boards and says, "I was thinking about buying some FP robes what do you think?" We'd be able to respond with, "They were accepted but now they're only allowed for previously approved costumes."

[V-cell]

Things that I have gathered so far from this post thread:

- The great majority of the contributors agree that the flowing robes are definitely a point that should be emphasized on the new CRL. FP would have to modify its current production run to be considered as acceptable for future Detachment approval. Current FP robes would not, as they are flat.

- Colors of the outer robes: We could definitely post the internationally accepted color code for the shades of red that are acceptable. We do want to keep this as "uniform" as possible. We could do the same for the inner robes and gloves.

- Visor: The proof is on the pictures, it is red and you can see the eyes of the trooper. However, I ask everyone to consider the following:

• We would be one of the few builds of the 501st where fans could see into our helmets. A huge part of the mystery of the Royal Guard is centered on the helmet and that slit. On countless occasions, I have had people stand very close to my bucket and try to see my eyes. They never do.
  Trooping for four hours with a red tinted visor is not fun at all. Some people even get headaches after the first couple of hours. For the benefit of the troopers, I would suggest leaving this part optional. I like Theo's idea of having interchangeable visors if the members want to go this route, but it is just not practical. I would also suggest that if the visor is to be red, then it should be reflective and not let the people see the troopers eyes or face.

- Boots: Many of us have identified the same maker of Royal Guard boots. There is an option now to get a hold of them, something that wasn't available some years ago. The red suede boots could definitely be instituted as long as there is a supply. As an option, the german jackboots should be left open as there are many options to acquire them.

- Gloves: Burgundy colored suede gloves that match your inner robe should be a minimum. There are many options out there today and members have been able to get a hold of amazing quality gloves now a days.

These are just my opinions and recommendations. Keep the comments coming, I am sure we will be able to get this squared out pretty soon.

[LuciousTalvloinne]

The mirrored visor hide eyes are red and when you look through them they are shaded but without a red hue.

[DarkFather]

I must ask. I am currently working on my ROTJ Guard atm. I have a seamstress lined up to do the work on my soft parts, but work won't commence on that until late May, and I have been advised that it will be a 3 month job. So I won't be expecting my robes until late July/early August. Is it expected that these changes will be enforced by then? I'd hate to get measured up and material to be purchased and work commence only to have the crl changed in mid-seamstressing. (I couldn't afford another $1100 dollars to get a 2nd 'approvable' set of soft parts done).

Cheers
DarkFather

[LuciousTalvloinne]

In all technically, we at the detachment level would be more critical of the costume than the average gml. Its why the curls are a guide for individuals to follow.j