ROTJ CRL Updates

[JesterTDA]

I'd like to propose that the ROTJ CRLs be brought up to a more movie accurate standard than we currently have and I'm hoping this is the forum for that. New sources, like Star Wars Costumes The Original Trilogy (pages 165-167) show much better pictures and details and I believe we need to match those. These changes would not affect currently approved guards but I believe future guards (and costumes which need to be re-approved in the future) should meet the updated standards.

I submit my first change, the outer robes:


As you can see, it appears that the fabric from the left has been pulled loosely across the body, over the right shoulder, and pinned behind the right shoulder blade (though there is no picture of this). This creates the waves in the fabric which is what you see in the movie. Flat robes should no longer be allowed (though currently approved guards would be grandfathered of course).

The second change are the gloves. It appears that leather was indeed used in the movie, again, as referenced in Star Wars Costumes The Original Trilogy (page 165). These gloves should be basic, unadorned, and be covered by the inner robe's sleeve. I'm willing to admit not all screen captures show what appears to be leather gloves so I'm not interested in removing the current fabric gloves, but rather have both versions of the gloves allowed.

Finally, it should be noted that the "fabric for the outer robe was dyed Candy Apple Red" and "the undergarments, including a tabard with an obi, boots, and gloves were created and dyed a deeper maroon color," Aggie Rodgers - costume designer for ROTJ. I think this description could be used in describing the colors of the fabric.

[Sascha_Wilsing]

We should get some more pictures here. I will try to scan some pages of the book too.
But i thought the pictures in are not showing the costume that was used in the movies but a prototype.
I will reread the pages then.
I would like to hear more suggestions and have a look at some HiRes Screenshots if availiable.

[bdgr]

We should get some more pictures here. I will try to scan some pages of the book too.
But i thought the pictures in are not showing the costume that was used in the movies but a prototype.
I will reread the pages then.
I would like to hear more suggestions and have a look at some HiRes Screenshots if availiable.

That's what I also thought when I briefly scanned my book. High Resolution screen shots of actual Royal Guards in the movie are more ideal and preferred.

[V-cell]

Jester brings a number of good points. The design of the outer robes can be seen (although not as clearly as the picture posted) in the deleted scene "Vader chokes Jerjerrod." The clip provides the longest scene of ROTJ guards, yet it never made it to the movie. Although the scene does provide some level of detail for the outer robes, it is hard to pick up what is occurring with the gloves and inner robes. It does show how the guards get into attack position, which is sort of cool.

[LuciousTalvloinne]

http://forcepike.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... it=Deleted A thread where Warren had posted screen shots of the deleted scene from blue-ray

[JesterTDA]

I'm not so much concerned about the inner robes, and the gloves are questionable as you barely see their hands in the movies (not including deleted scenes which are far from Blu-ray quality). But I believe the look of the outer robes are unquestionably NOT flat like a majority of robes are (mine included). If anything that should be the main focus on the changes, everything is harder to tell but the material flow isn't difficult to tell. I appreciate the reception to this also. Hopefully together we can get the CRLs updated.

[V-cell]

I can't deny that I love this part of the process. I hope all those interested in the Detachment's future CRLs contribute actively to this post. Maybe, we can take this discussion (and the lessons learned from it) as a model for our "very soon to be launched" Shadow Guard CRL discussion. I see that there is interest stacking up for one Stephen's favorite characters as well.

To start, for all ROTJ guards that have straight robes (including both Jester and I) we might be safe. Here's my argument in defense of the straight robes. As a picture is worth more than a thousand words, I scoured the internet to find the best quality pic possible to justify our look. This is what I found:



Now, forget about the figure, its origin and the rest...but focus on the picture. That is the same picture Kenner used back in 1983 from a stock photo supplied by LFL. The robes flow straight down (yellow arrows are mine), the material doesn't get that awesome wave look and case closed.

But as we all know, nothing is ever that easy in the hobby we love. Playing devil's advocate, I find another image backing up Jester's argument (which is based on the statements of the original designer/seamstress of the costume) and this is what I found:



Kenner, stock photo LFL...Royal Guard and robes flow beautifully creating that amazing arc (yellow lines are mine).

The question comes up: could it be the same robes but worn differently. The answer to this question is definitely: Nope. I have a theory, which I will backup with the next picture. My theory is that when multiple costumes need to be made (probably by not one, but multiple seamstress pros and they are dealing with the timelines of shooting a movie, variants occur. Think about this, for a movie that lasted 133 minutes, where we appear for less than 10 seconds...well, it really doesn't matter how the robes flow, if they are perfect, and they just focus on the impact (which by the way, worked incredibly well on us). My evidence for this theory, the same picture Jester has in his sig.



In this pic we see five guards. Now...you would've thought that the best, most iconic, robe would be the one closest to the camera, right? Not by a long shot. That robe suffered from a wardrobe malfunction. Do you see it? The actor's bottom part of the helmet is covered by the beautiful flow of the robe, and ends up having a jumbled bunch, which changes the robes completely and come out flatter than the ones Jester and I own.



Concerning the outer robes and their draped look, I am all for it. However, it is not going to be easy to replicate that look due to the diversity of materials we currently accept. The weight of true velvet is different to that of velveteen. It will definitely be an interesting process and one that could be somewhat costly. Now, with the help of a professional taylor/seamstress this process might be easier and less painful to the pocket. If I were ever to make a bet, I believe ANOVOS will license this costume soon (if not already) and they are probably going through this same exercise.

Now back to the deleted scenes. Thank you Stephen for posting those pics. I found one that is of fairly good quality and we can congratulate our current members for coming extremely close to what was seen in that scene.



Inner robe color can be easily elucidated from this pic. Gloves, most certainly leather with a Burgundy tinge. Forcepikes, we have members with almost identical builds. In essence, we are almost there. We welcome all opinions, perspectives and analysis! Let's keep this conversation going and come to a conclusion. Remember, we should always strive to improve and we have made amazing advances since the day the Detachment was created. If there is still a possibility to improve our costumes, let's go for it!

[LuciousTalvloinne]

Also with different actors and costumers in size and build you get a different body flow. Example can be seen in the deleted scene wtih the height differences.

[Gruff]

I love the look of the draping that creates those waves. I don't think it should become a minimum in the CRL though, given that there are references with the flat chest. Certainly encourage people though and make a reference to it in the CRL. I can't sew a hole in a sock let alone a Robe, so I had little choice but to get it made. FP did mine, so I had no choice when it came to the draping. I wouldn't want to see prospective members turning away because it was too hard to make the costume. Also, the kids that we troop for couldn't care less.


Not sure about the gloves. I'm sure I have seen other references with suede, just can't remember where.

We have all been told that if we can see your face you need to fix the visor. Well, every reference pic I have seen where there is ample light you can clearly see their face. So what about that?

Just my 2 cents.

[JesterTDA]

I do think a lot of what goes into a costume (any costume really) is the reality of what we see vs what we think we see. Everybody thinks Vader is solid black until they really look and notice that he's also a grey/silver. Nobody notices the straps holding TK armor together in a movie until they look for it and see it. That's what I think of when it comes to the visor. Everybody thinks it's black until you look at it in a movie set lighting and see that it's in fact red, and fairly see-through. From a personal trooping perspective, I perfer the black. I've done 3 years with red and I hated it. I missed out on so many things ("Did you see that kid in the yellow shirt? He was a huge fan!" "No, I saw lots of people in pink shirts though.") and got headaches from seeing everything in red.

I agree that different robes sit on people differently. From what was said in the OT Costume book everything was sewn by a single person but clearly they weren't custom fitted to each wearer. I'll buy that. I'll also agree that there may be a few instances when the robes appear flatter but even the flat ones have fabric ridges which most of our FP robes don't.

Perhaps a change in the CRLs to strongly suggest the flow in the robes, with a minimum of flatness would be a good way to go about it. In an ideal world FP (the main supplier of stock robes) would be able to fix the problem simply by sewing it that way, but I don't think that'll work until we put that in as the suggestion. I do think there is stronger evidence on the leather gloves, which V-Cell pointed out.